Draining Fuel Tanks and 1900's Octane

Duncan and Sandy Denman watership_down@sympatico.ca asked
Hi All,

Since things seem quiet I was wondering what the general opinion was on
draining fuel tanks for the winter on gas engines. I have always done it
then started out in the spring with fresh gas but some people tell me
they don't bother etc. Thoughts?

Duncan

--
Duncan and Sandy Denman
Ayton, Ontario, Canada
Mailto:watership_down@sympatico.ca
Visit our Home Page at:
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/carrotpatch/
Home of the Massey Harris Stationary Engine Registry

John Culp johnculp@chartertn.net answered:

I've never bothered, and so far haven't encountered a problem. The little two-stroke engines in things like weedeaters and chainsaws have started right up after as much as 10 years of nonuse, just adding fresh fuel. I did find a Briggs & Stratton a bit "cranky" on the first tank of gas, which had evaporated down to maybe 30% of its volume, very sour stuff. I'd just topped it with fresh gas. Primed it with a splash of fresh gas in the carb to get it started, and it was fine.

John

John Hammink jg.hammink@quicknet.nl

Hi Duncan,

I always do the same and an other point is, my insurance
company wants it to do. I have to store the fuels in an
apart little store box outside the shed.

John Hammink.
Anna Paulowna, Netherlands.
jg.hammink@quicknet.nl
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumList?u=4059020

Orrin B. Iseminger oiseming@moscow.com

Duncan --

On another forum I once suggested adding Sta-Bil to the gasoline in stored
engines. Someone came back and said there was a better product, but I
can't seem to find the name of it, now.

IMHO, nothing serious will happen if you let untreated gasoline sit over
the winter. I have, however, encountered some difficulty with engines
stored for a few years.

I'm not sure about modern gasolines, but a few years back I had to get a
motorcycle going that had been in storage about five years. The gasoline
shutoff valve gradually leaked fuel into the carbs where it evaporated.
The resultant varnish had built up to 3/16-inch thick in some places; came
darned close to having to throw both carbs into the trash pile.

I've also come across engines that had dried varnish completely plug up the
gasoline lines, check valves, etc. Of course they had been stored for years.

Bottom line: Over the winter, don't worry about it. Long-term, drain.

Orrin

Arnie Fero feroa@venus.pgh.wec.com


One argument in favor of draining is that next season you may be favoring
other engines in your collection and that one doesn't make it out to play.
Then it moves furthur back in the shed and misses another season. Pretty
soon it's fuvbe years later and the tank is filled with stinky goo. 8-))

See ya, Arnie

Arnie Fero
Pittsburgh, PA
feroa@venus.pgh.wec.com

Don and Kay Fleming d.fleming@sk.sympatico.ca

Duncan,

I have a 2 cycle lawn mower that I bought in 1982. I drain the gas and run
the carb dry every fall and to date I have never had to take the carb off
for maintenance. Some people recommend fuel stabilizer which I do use in a
power plant that I want ready to run but draining the mower seems a lot
easier than doing carb overhauls. I do the same with the snow blower. It
works for me.

Don Fleming
Kipling, Saskatchewan Canada

Joe Betz jlb94@juno.com said

I've never had a problem in not draining fuel tanks over the winter.
However - I have encountered a stale smell in the gas if an engine is
going to sit for 2 or more years. I have a few Briggs that sit and get
forgotten.
Mostly, I've been lucky.

I would be more concerned with the fuel bowls on carburetors of small
engines and lawnmowers. I guess you should drain the tank, then run the
engine out of fuel.

I've never tried sta-bil or anything like that, but would consider it If
I knew the engine won't be run for a long period.


Joe Betz said that.
Library, PA
jlb94@juno.com

Alan Bowen alanb2@webtv.net

Over the years I've dealt with too many Springtime hard starters. The
gas can I use for all outdoor power equiptment never gets filled without
putting Sta-Bil in it first. That's the same gas can that I use to fill
my old engines with. I use gas from it to mix all my two cycle gas too.

So,,,,,, I don't drain anything,,,,,,I fill the tanks up for the winter.

The last time I needed my generator it had been sitting in my wide open
garage for almost two years. It started first pull.

More important,,,, I got my Mom's stuff all set up the same way. I
really hated going out there and getting her two mowers/tiller/chipper
to fire up every year. For the last two years I can go out there in the
Spring and everything starts up like I used it last week.

Alan Bowen alanb2@webtv.net
Williamsburg, Michigan
http://community.webtv.net/alan-bowen/AlanBowensWebPage
http://community.webtv.net/alanb2/TarbuckSchulgen

J.B. Castagnos LAhammers@aol.com said

Two cycles, especially the richer oil mixes, can be a problem when trying to start after a layup. The fuel evaporates and leaves the heavier stuff that's not very volatile, makes for hard cranking.
J.B. Castagnos
Belle Rose, LA

Patrick Livingstone pml@bigpond.com

Hi Duncan,
I make sure the petrol engines are empty if they are going to sit for a
while. Even if it is only going to be for a few weeks. Modern unleaded fuels
seem to go off pretty quick and I will not even think of putting LRP (lead
replacement petrol) in any of my engines. It goes off quick and fouls spark
plugs like crazy. Edd reckons LPR is the best thing ever invented as he is
selling a lot more spark plugs at rallies ;)
The 12hp R&V will not even fire unless I put fresh fuel in it and I know of
a few other people with ignitor engines who have found the same thing.
I cannot see how you guys (and gals) can cope with having to put your toys
away for a few months every year. I would go stir crazy if I go for more
than a week without running an engine and more than a month without going to
a good engine display.
Patrick

Patrick M Livingstone
02 96920137
Leichhardt NSW
pml@bigpond.com
http://www.oldengine.org/members/pml
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pml/

James Yost jnyost@yahoo.com

Hey SEL,

STA-BIL works really good as long as you fill your
tank FULL.
If you think you have a fuel gum up problem in any
engine go buy some racing fuel and put it in your
tank. This fuel will clean up any varnish that has
occurred. I have used it on occasion.
I used it by mistake once in an engine in the
crawler that I had sitting for ? time. The boys and I
just got back from a mud run and I wanted to start the
old engine. No regular gas around. I grabbed the fuel
for the race truck and thought what the heck use it.
It ran really ruff at first and then started
leveling out. Took the carb off just to look and it
cleaned up on its own.

Jim

William Pfeiffer Jr rusty_iron@ameritech.net asked a related question

The BLUE STREAK gas that Marathon sells, has very few
additives. Of course, at about $3.50 a gallon it can get
kinda pricey fillin up a 5 gallon can.

Just fer giggles, what was the average octane rating on gas
sold in the early 1900's?

You can also sometimes get aviation gas at some of the small
airports that has not been mixed with the anti-freeze yet.
This stuff is at about 100-110 octane depending on the area.

William J. Pfeiffer Jr.,
Sharon A. Cook,
Freckles the waterdog &
Sugar the licky monster

Woodstock, Illinois, USA
rusty_iron@ameritech.net

And Chuck Hays ponybike@hotmail.com answered

> Just fer giggles, what was the average octane rating on gas
> sold in the early 1900's?

Pretty variable, really. Two reasons: low compression engines
will run just fine on fuel with the approximate octane
rating of tap water, and gas came from a different source.

A friend of mine did some intensive research a year or so
back into old gasoline formulations. He collects gasoline
and kerosene lighting devices (as I do, too) and wondered
why the old lamps (like the Coleman Arc Lamp) from the late
1800s and early 1900s wouldn't light up properly even when
restored with authentic parts. They will light on modern
gasoline, but the mantle only lights up halfway, and
richening the mixture only creates a sooty yellow flame.

What Fil found was that at the turn of the last century
gasoline came primarily from wells producing what was called
"drip gas" -- it literally came out of the ground that way.

Drip gas is a hell of a lot less volatile than modern gas,
so in the burners it would make a hot, persistent flame
that would incandesce the whole rigid upright mantle. He
hooked up with a petrochemist in (if I remember) Colorado
to analyze a sample of drip gas -- apparently you can still
get drip gas in Pennsylvania. As you might expect, it had
a pretty high concentration of longer-chain hydrocarbons.

Fil and another friend of mine did some careful mixing with
varying percentages of pentane and found that a mixture of
50% modern gas to 50% pentane would *approximate* drip gas.
However, it has other problems, not least of which is that
it likes to go boom. Needless to say, they worked in very
small batches, with all safety precautions -- and a lot of
luck. DO NOT try this at home.

Once the refinery operations got going in the 1900s and
refined gasoline got more common, it was of course made
in the way with which we're more familiar, by cracking
the crude. That stuff came out with most of the higher
-anes missing -- but it ran OK in the gas engines of the
time because they all had low compression.

Anyway, it wasn't until the early 1930s that octane
and tetraethyl lead got put into gas, because cars were
finally getting engines with high enough compressions
to need the boost. We have Henry's Model A to thank for
high-octane gas.

> You can also sometimes get aviation gas at some of the small
> airports that has not been mixed with the anti-freeze yet.

Honestly, if you're using anything with higher octane than
the absolute minimum needed to keep the engine from pinging
under load, you're just blowing money out the exhaust.
Higher octane is not per se "better". One of the best cleaners
for fuel systems and carburetors is gasohol. You won't find
a cheaper cleaner -- even buying a gallon of ethanol and
adding it to 9 gallons of gasoline will be more. In fact,
in most places in the Midwest, they'll *pay you* to use
it, by knocking two or three cents off the price of a gallon.
If you use it with any regularity, it will keep your fuel
systems squeaky clean. If you've never used it, a large
inline fuel filter is a must, or you will stop up the
carb with 100 years of grunge. Once it's clean, it'll
stay clean.

Don't store the stuff, though. It will separate, and it
does attract water. Drain it and put it in the wife's car,
or in Junior's minibike -- or use it to start the annual
Fall Fire.

Some avgas and racing gas also has methanol or other
corrosive agents in it. Not what you want in your engine.

Chuck

Bill Lopolous William.Lopoulos@cportcorp.com had the last word on this one...

"Drip gas" is also known as "Casing Head Gas". I know several people that
use it in early engines and models. It works quite well. Some of the
engines at Coolspring are run with it, apparently they have easy access to
it. I haven't yet tried it in one of my engines, but probably will soon.

bill