Removing A Flywheel

William J. Pfeiffer Jr. needed to remove the flywheel and asked the SEL for advice:
Both flywheels HAVE to come off.  The one side with the
pulley on it needs to be pulled due to an improper key having been
installed, which in turn buggered up the flywheel a bit.  The governor
side needs to come off so that I can make a new slide for the governor.
Looks like they have been off before, and someone hit the side of the
slide with a punch or something and broke it.  When I make the new one,
I am gonna make a few extras.  I will probably never need them, but ya
never know.  I am getting the garage warmed up as I type this, and am
gonna try the heating the rim trick.

William J. Pfeiffer Jr.,
Sharon A. Cook,
Freckles the gutless wonderdog &
Sugar the tongued terror

rusty_iron@ameritech.net
Woodstock, Illinois, USA

Rick Strobel suggested:

With the key removed, now is a great time to polish the crank with emery
cloth..nice and smooth, no protruding nicks.  One guy even takes a pick and
removes any crud where the hub meets the cs.
    I used ole "Rosebud" on the little Gal., concentrating heat around the
hub,,even up on the spokes.  Puller wouldn't budge it..let it cool..applied
more PB.  After several cycles with "Rosy" it started to move. btw., I was
using a bearing splitter on the puller as I wanted to stay as close to the
crank as possible and try to pull on the hub.  I wasn't using a "three-jaw.
    I've also noticed that if one can turn the flywheel just a little so the
key set and key way don't line up anymore, then it removes easier.  Course
if you can turn it that much, you've probably got the battle, half won.
    I toyed with the idea of dry ice on the crank...didn't need it this
time.
    I would say, get the biggest puller you can get your hands on..possibly
even a porta-power with home built adapters.
    You might try jamming up the journals on the crank, or the other
flywheel and try to turn the stubborn flywheel.leverage, leverage, leverage.
    Many cycles of heat/cool might help also.  I'm just not comfortable with
the fine line between hot, dull red, and the various indicators of "how much
heat is necessary."  The Economy piston didn't even think about moving until
cyl. was "dull red."
   Might even try heating up the crank a little..shrinkage/cooling rate
might give you that .0001 you need for the penetrant.
 Hope this helps alittle
RickinMt

Skip Landis cautioned:

rick & all, caution!!!!!  i have exploded a flywheel by heating the hub with a
torch. if you heat, heat evenly. hub, spokes & rim. cast has a terrific rate of
expansion. scared the bejeebers outa me. skip in nw montana

Joe Betz added:

If you have the key out even the slightest movement and a lot of
penetrating oil should get it.  I think I would try rocking it to turn it
a little on the crank.
Maybe a little heat with the torch but no too much.

Joe Betz said that. 
jlb94@juno.com
  
Ray Freeman added an important point:

One of the flywheels on my 11/2 Model M was on very tight. Could not budge
it with as much heat as I dared so gently heated and kept on applyng lube.
After that a 10 ton puller did the trick taking care to keep the pulling
arms right in on the hub. Also of course cleaned the crank up to get rid of
any burrs.
Ray Freeman


George Best repeated my caution:
I haven't looked back to see the original message that started this thread, so I'm now asking why are you trying to remove the flywheel?

Generally, I think most people leave the flywheels on the crankshaft unless there really is a need to remove the flywheel.  If the flywheel is difficult to get off, look at it as a safety bonus in that it is less likely to work loose while running at a show.

If the crankshaft needs to be repaired, then I can see removing the flywheel(s).

If a gear needs to be replaced, then I can see removing the flywheel.

And obviously if a flywheel needs to be repaired or replaced, it probably needs to be removed.

George

Joe Betz added:
I have an old wheel puller that's been on the shelves since I was 17.
I think they were used on Chryslers ??
Any mechanic should know what it is.

 Once mounted to the wheel, you could use a BFH to knock off the wheel.

Has a threaded rod shaft and a disk where 3 legs are mounted.
These legs are then bolted to the wheel.
There is a "knock off" type spinner on the operator end.

I imagine, once these legs were modified to somehow attach or grip the
flywheel, it would work.

I had to remove the chain pulley from my Jeager.  After all else failed,
(and I couldn't mount the puller ) I went at it by driving a steel wedge
between the flywheel and pulley.  It took a lot of hammering - and I was
a little afraid of hurting the flywheel - but it came off fighting all
the way.

Joe Betz said that. 
jlb94@juno.com

Rick Strobel
Gosh Joe..I was just thinking about one of those that dad used.  I agree, it
was used on Mopars, where the rear wheel hub was splined on the axles.
    I would think it would work great!! with a few homebuilt adapters.  Sure
would save on wrenchin'.  And every other smack or so, you would smack it on
the end.  That proceedure works good on any puller.
    Well gang...fired up now..headed for the shed......."AND THE CROWD GOES
WILD!!)
Rick


[Editor's Note: The pullers these guys are talking about are steering wheel pullers. The modern ones are very light duty and probably useless for removing a flywheel. If you want to try a streering wheel puller, locate an old one. Second hand tool shops, fetes, country shows, "Antique" stores are all great places to find old tools. Personally I would go with a large bearing puller as they are designed to do the hard yard.]

Clarke Lewis McGee gave some practical first hand knowledge:
In my more than 30 years of experience with large gears, couplings etc. in
the sugar mill and other industry, I have found that a rule of thumb for
shrink fits on shafts is as follows. for every inch of shaft dia. and 100
deg F. difference in temperature, you can get aprox. 0.001 increase in OD of
hub. We found that if we heated a gear with a 4.996" bore to about 490 deg
F. (in oil preferably) it would expand to about 5.012 +- this was generally
sufficient to get it on a 5.000" shaft that had been iced down until it was
sweating. This was generally about a 4 hour job. We would put the ice on the
shaft in the morning and light the burner under the oil in order to heat the
oil and gear slowly. By 11:00 or so we would lift the gear out of the oil
and measure the  ID, if it was large enough, (and we found that 495 deg. F
was sufficient) we could slip the gear down to its shoulder (over the key
and everything with plenty of anti-seize) and leave it till after lunch to
install.
Now removal is a different story, (because you can't heat the gear or
flywheel in oil) but the same principles apply. So the first thing that
should be done is cool the shaft/flywheel down to as cold as possible with
ice or dry ice. Then use the largest rosebud or torch available (for larger
engines) and heat all portions of flywheel, putting pressure on it with a
puller. However, once the shaft is too hot to touch and the flywheel has not
come loose, one has to start over, by letting everything cool to ambient,
add ice again and then heat. One time we spent over 2 days removing a large
coupling from a turbine shaft because of improper installation (i.e. no
anti-seize)

Clarke L . McGee

Arnie Fero added similar experience and concurred with Clarke
When I was an apprentice machinist I worked in the maintenance machine
shop in the USS Gary Works.  We had to rebuild a lot of the rolling mill
shafts.  This involved removing and installing really large gears,
bearings, etc.

We had a series of burner rings that were just 3/4" black pipe bent into
hoops with a series of small holes drilled on the inside.  We would put
one or more of these rings around the item to be heated.  It worked really
well.

We used natural gas but you could probably do it with propane too.
Probably need some of the larger size tanks.

A similar rig (probably best with a couple of rings of different sizes)
would work for heating the hub, spokes, and rim of a flywheel.  I think it
would result in more uniform heating than you could achieve with a
rosebud.  

Or you could take the approach we took when we heated the Tod
Engine dogbones that held the flywheel halves together.  We got a
half-dozen guys to all bring their oxy-acetylene rigs and rosebuds.  Just
amazing how quickly you can heat a 500# chunk of steel in an icy-cold
flywheel with all that applied heat.  8-))  Each dogbone took about 20
minutes.  Lotsa frost on those tanks!!

See ya,  Arnie

Arnie Fero
Pittsburgh, PA
feroa@venus.pgh.wec.com

Rick Strobel asked of Clarke
We too used that process in aviation, Clark, but I find it interesting that
you used anti-sieze.  Never did that in aviation.  Doesn't anti-seize
promote "Working" of that said assembly?
Rick
PS: And I like that repetitive heating and cooling.


Clarke Lewis McGee responded:
Well now, All of the equipment that I have worked on have very little to do
with power impulses like steam engines and hit & miss etc. But we have used
it on tapered shafts and shrink fit shafts with no problem of loosening up.
It might be different on a big recip. engine...

Clarke

This one just got better and better when Bill revealed that his problems were worsened by a previous farm repair...

William J. Pfeiffer Jr. expanded on his previous query:

ARRRGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

Sometimes a farmers REPAIR job can be EXTREMELY frustrating!

I heated the rim up, started cranking about an eight of a turn at a
time, and still will not budge.  I then sat back, had some coffee and
pondered.  Then just for giggles I LOOKED down the keyway and what ya
think I find?  The darn things has ANOTHER key shoved in there!  Bad
thing is that it is VERY irregular surface, and it has what looks to be
a feeler guage between the key and the crank.  This key has to be about
three inches long, and is most definitely STUCK!

Any brainstorms on how I can get it out?  The end I can get to appears
to be somewhat angled, so the drillbit keeps walking right into the
flywheel.

Musta been a FATG that did it!

William J. Pfeiffer Jr.,
Sharon A. Cook,
Freckles the gutless wonderdog &
Sugar the tongued terror

[Editor: A FATG is a Fat-Assed-Tractor-Guy or Fat-Arsed-Tractor-Guy if you are not American! This is basically a reference to the (usually) good natured prodding between engine people and tractor people. Most are secretly in both "camps" but have a favourite of the two...]

Richard Fink Sr gave some brilliant advice that we could all use in everything (especially me!)
I would say that this is where necessity comes in. that is the mother of invention sit back and relax take a deep breath and it will come to you.
R Fink

Doug Tallman added some words about driving the flywheel in to then pull it off...

I have better luck if I can get the flywheel to go in on the crank. If the
key is tapered, your taking it off the angled ramp and relieving the
pressure. Make sure you brace inside the crank throw tight so you don't
bend the crank together or better yet, support it on the flywheel side of
the throw. Clean up the shaft on the inside as well as possible, Use a
piece of pipe over the end of the shaft and drive it in. YMMV! Good Luck!


                                                      
           Doug Tallman                           
           dtallman@accnorwalk.com                          
            VGTCOA Ohio Regional Director       
              Greenwich, OH USA                         
             Join us for the 2003 Regional show 
                      June 20-22 
               Crawford Co Fairgrounds  
                Bucyrus Ohio 

Orrin Iseminger added:

Now that ought to be easy if you have a mill and a lathe.  If you don't,
find someone who does.

Take a key the same size as the one you've already removed, and mill a
thousandth, or so, off two sides.  The thing you'd be shooting for is to
have it be an easy fit into the hole, but not too sloppy.

When you get the key the right size, center it in the lathe and drill a hole
the full length.  That will be the hard part.  Sometimes, drills have a
tendency to head off to the southwest.

Keep at it until you have a reasonably straight hole through the key.  Now,
you have a drill guide.

While you're at it, you might want to make two drill guides.  One for a
pilot drill and one with as large a hole as the key can take without falling
apart.

Now, order some aircraft drills from MSC (they have fast delivery) that fit
your pilots.  You'll probaby need aircraft drills for the length.

Now, insert the key with the pilot drill hole.  Drill the key that's in
there all the way through.

Next, use the big drill guide and the big drill and drill that sucker out.

If, by this time the key hasn't relaxed its hold, order another aircraft
drill that's the same size as the key.  The keyway, itself, will be the
drill guide, this time.

Good luck.

Orrin

Bernie Carter added:

I ordered the gib key puller out of GEM quite a while ago, and have actually
used it quite often. Infact it is starting to wear in one spot.  Some times
to use this i have to regrind the head of the key flat. If the key way is
clean and well oiled (PB Blaster) then i can usually pull the ke right out.
Once its out i get the file and wire wheel and clean the crankshaft till its
shiny, then a few light taps and off comes the flywheel.  Only once did i
not be able to use the gib key puller, due to someone cutting the head off
the key.  In that case i drilled the key out, put a fine thread bolt in as
far as i could with a washer on the bolt, and used that as the key head.
Destroyed the key, but then again youll destroy it if you drill it out also.

Bernie Carter

[Editor: GEM is Gas Engine Magazine, a great resource centreing mailing on the USA but with international
contributors such as England's Helen "Dolly" French and Australia's me!]

Alan Bowen added:

Take a piece of stock thta will fit the keyway and drill it to make a
guide. Clamp it in place start drilling. 

If you need to do any filling to level a place to clamp it then go ahead
and do it.

When it is done you will have another cool story to tell when showing
the engine. 
Alan

Jim Dragoset added:
I would find the thickest plate of steel that will fit behind the hub, burn
a U-shaped opening
the width of the shaft. Drill and tap evenly spaced holes that allow bolts
or pieces
of all-thread rod to fit between the spokes. A back plate of the same
thickness and hole pattern
should be made. Nuts and washers, if all-thread is used could do the pushing
against an impact
socket slightly smaller than the shaft. A Porta-Power or hydraulic jack can
also be used for
the push. We used this type of arrangement for boat wheels under-water.
-Jim

Arnie Fero added:
Make yourself a drill guide out of a piece of keystock.  File the surfaces
so that its a slip fit into the flywheel.  Clamp it in place with a
C-clamp and drill away.  Your drill won't walk then.  After you get that
first hole drilled in you should be able to use a larger drill just a bit
smaller than the key.  Depending on access you can either drive it out or
cut it out.  But you've gotten the majority out with the drill bits.

Good luck.

See ya,  Arnie

Arnie Fero
Pittsburgh, PA
feroa@venus.pgh.wec.com

Joe Betz added a half-answer-half-question and an all too true observation...

Make a guide - - -
Depending on the size of the keyway.
How about a piece of copper or steel tubing to guide the drill bit.
Drill - tap - insert - pull out ??

I know - - - Sounds easy !!

More like drill - hammer - pull - cuss - get hurt. 

Joe Betz said that. 
jlb94@juno.com

Now it is getting even more interesting... another day, another round of suggestions!

Elden DuRand talked about another kind of puller

I just remembered that, lying in the corner of my "shop" is a puller I got many years ago.  It is supposedly for pulling the rear wheels off of Model "T" Fords but would work on just about any artillery (wood spoke) wheeled car of moderate size.

The frame of it was cast iron (a forging - maybe???) which had a threaded hole for the pusher bolt.  The ends of the puller (two arms) were shaped to hook around the round wooden wheel spokes.  Put the thing on the wheel, snug the bolt up against the end of the axle shaft, tighten it as much as you dare then give the end of the bolt a whack with a big hammer.  POW!  The wheel would pop right off.

Something like this could be used on a flywheel if it isn't stuck too tight and care was taken to not put so much strain on it that you broke either the puller or a spoke.  With the shaft cleaned-up where it can be cleaned and a lot of penetrating oil soaked-in I think that, once you get it busted loose, it ought to crank right off.

No one's said what I think is the best way to get a stubborn wheel off of a small engine and that's to remove the crankshaft with the flywheel(s) on it and use a big hydraulic press to push the shaft out of the wheel.  You can rest the hub of the wheel very securely and be pretty well assured that the wheel and shaft can be divorced without much of a chance of harm to either one of them (unless, of course, you let the crankshaft fall to the floor when the divorce is final.      

Take care - Elden DuRand

Chuck Balyeat suggested a modern puller...

Do a search for Posi Lock pullers , they dont fall off .  I have some of the
40ton and unders . Based in Montana too if i recall   The big three jaw #110
is a flywheel poppin momma .
And............the shipping will just kill ya .
Kentucky, US of A

Rick Strobel had some more words

    I have tried using a hyd. jack and chains and the like for removing a
flywheel.  It was definetly working from the ears down.  I could get the
jack to "jack" horizontally if I had it oriented right, but it was a real
pain holding everything up.  It would be a different story with the
flywheels/crank removed and turned on end.
    If one was to heat just the rim, wouldn't it have a tendency to pull the
spokes apart?  I like the "ring of fire" that one guy suggested, and get an
even heat throughout the flywheel.  Course now Bill has that key to deal
with.  Can you gas axe that collar off Bill so that you can get to the
inboard side of the hub?  Probably be better with some kind of chisel or
saw.  If you get that partial key removed, then my latest BF is to run it
and see if that will loosen the flywheel a little.  Hose clamp on the
exposed cs could be used to insure it doesn't come off.  At least you would
have FUN listening and watching it knowing that you are trying your best to
break it free.  And you could do the governin' manually.  Bet you induce
some pretty good shock torque doing that.

later,
Rick

Larry Evans offered:

A few years ago a friend of mine did something similar except instead of a single plate with a U shaped cut he used two plates, each with a crank shaft sized hole in the middle.  Each plate was then cut in half right through the hole.  He then assembled the pulling rig so the cut edges were at 90 degrees to each other.  The advantage of this set up was that he got total contact with the hub so there were no uneven forces.

It took several days to actually get the wheel loose by applying penetrating oil and re-tightening the nuts on the threaded rod.  I suspect he probably applied some nice gentle "love" taps with a nice big hammer to the plate at the end of the shaft also.  Just like removing a stuck piston patience, patience, patience is needed.

Regards,

Larry Evans
Arcadia, Southern California, USA

William Pfieffer Jr added (to use his words) a new brain fart

I have had a brain fart.

Taking the idea of the piece of plate steel with a U cut in it to fit
around the shaft, and using 6 pieces if threaded rod.  How thick would
the plate need to be if I shoved a bottle jack on the end of the crank
and put a matching piece of plate over that?  Be sorta like making my
own press, and should get that bugger off with relative ease.  As for
cutting the collar off, I would rather not.  I need to be able to get an
accurate reading of the ID for when I make the new one.  Ya all think
1/4 inch plate would work, or should I go with 3/8?

PS: This has been a REAL good thread, with a LOT of different ideas.
Hint hint, nudge nudge.

William J. Pfeiffer Jr.,
Sharon A. Cook,
Freckles the gutless wonderdog &
Sugar the tongued terror

John Hammink responded on the plate size

Bill for these constructions you need at least ½" plate.
I made alot of these constructions to pul off flywheels
and pulling sleeves out the block, it need to be strong
otherwise the iron bent and you loose your pulling power.
I once used a big roller bearing puller, two halves hold
together by two 3/4" strong bolts at the hub, two long
bolts go to a brige with a central threaded 1" spanner bolt.
Turn the central bolt and make so much pressure, that
you can't make any more turn, let it rest and heat the hub
equaly with a burner. Watch TV for half an hour and
spray WD40 or the same stuff and try to turn the central
bolt you win 1 to 1½ turn maybe. In this situation comes
patience first. In my case the next day when I was wor-
king at the bench, I heard a "Tic" behind me and thought
it's loose that's it. Turning the central bolt with half the
muscle power and the flywheel came off nice and quietly.

Take care,
John Hammink
Anna Paulowna, Netherlands.
jg.hammink@quicknet.nl


Rick Strobel had some thoughts on the bottle jack idea
Darn well worth a try Bill. 3/8's if ya got it..maybe bigger..all it's gonna
do is bend.  Double nuts might help also.  Might keep this in mind Bill.
When I was using the bottle jack and after it broke free, then it seemed to
jam on the cs.  I released some pressure and repositioned the jack.  Then it
came off.  I think I used my 8 ton.  If using horizontal ya might pop the
filler off and fill it full of hyd. fluid.  Good Luck!
Rick

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